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Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Delphine Bowers 
February 12, 1998 
Cassette 5, Side 2 
 
 
Delphine Bowers  00:00 
[Recording begins mid-sentence]-- hands dirty, you get dirt under your fingernails. Mechanics 
are not looked up to the way engineers are. And that's, that's the way all, every society is. I have 
never heard of a society to glorify dirty hands, and they're all, there are all kinds of language 
things that talk about dirt under your fingernails, getting your hands dirty, and he's up to the his 
elbows in and all of this stuff, if you listen to the metaphors and speech. And we were supposed 
to not look as if we did those things, to have a pretty, fresh house dress on and visit, greet our 
husbands with smiles when they came home. You know, it was all crazy. Do the dirty work, but 
don't look like you do it so that you can be respected. One of the ads for valium from those days 
was a picture of a woman with a scarf tied around her head and leaning on her broom with two or 
three little kids hanging on her, and you knew they were whining and their noses were dirty. And 
the caption, it was an ad that was in a medical journal, it was to doctors, and it said, "You can't 
make her life any better, but you can make it seem better." And a lot of us swallowed that stuff. I 
wanted to be a good wife and mother, just like Good Housekeeping and Ladies' Home Journal, I 
wanted-- I got brainwashed, I believed that stuff, but it wasn't true, and it didn't work. Out of 10 
households in our neighborhood, I suspect at least four of them had an alcoholic parent. I suspect 
that in at least one of them, someone was, was beating a wife, there was wife beating going on. It 
was, the statistics applied there just as well as any place, but it was supposed to look good. I 
became very aware, when I started interviewing, that in places like Yesler Terrace, where your 
next door neighbor also may, might be beaten, that the women could sit around and talk 
afterwards about the experience they'd had the night before and say things like, "Oh God, he 
picked up a [inaudible] frying pan and hit me across the side of the head, I thought I was going to 
die." And they could talk about it, and they were real. And I saw how much more desirable that 
was, than to have terrible, terrible fights in the middle of the night with people screaming and 
crying, and with or without violence, and the next day, pretend that you were June Cleaver. It 
was much more crazy making. And I was aware of that then because I, I've always wanted, I've 
always wanted, if I could, to live the truth, but you couldn't in that suburban atmosphere. And 
again, I swallowed it, I believed it. I believed that all of the other women really did have Good 
Housekeeping homes, and I was the only one that didn't. And that is typical of the isolation of a 
family in which there's an alcoholic spouse. Is the non alcoholic becomes very, very, very 
secretive, very isolated, has no, usually blames herself, thinks that if she was a better wife, this 
wouldn't have, on and on and on and all of those things happened. And I've been thinking about 
why I didn't contact my cousins or see them for 52 years. It was partly that I was ashamed. I was 
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ashamed of the way I lived. I was ashamed of my husband. I was ashamed of my, my weight 
gain. I was ashamed of the, just all kinds of things, anybody walking in could have, could have 
seen that my life wasn't really very happy, and I was sure it was all by my, my fault, that it was a 
sign of my failure. And women, we can try to educate women, but they still believe those things. 
They still believe those things, and those things haven't changed. There's more help out there, 
there are more agencies, but I can remember my, I wanted the kids to go to Alateen, and he said, 
"If the kids go to Alateen, I'll lose my job, because somebody will see them there, and they'll 
know I'm an alcoholic, or that you think I am, and I'll get fired." So, I wasn't devoted enough to 
the truth to say, "Okay, so be it. The kids are going to go and get help." I didn't have the guts to 
do that, because what he was saying, essentially, was, we'll all starve. So I've seen the women's-- 
I heard Betty Friedan-- 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  05:28 
Yesterday, on the news, right? 
 
Delphine Bowers  05:30 
Yeah. And she was saying something she never said before, about having to work with men. It's 
about men and women both. So the women's movement is maturing, because when I was in 
school and I was in the concentration on women and mental health, which was in the late '70s, it 
was like you didn't have much use for men. So, I'm glad to see it evolving, because it was just as 
lacking in spirituality as a belief that women were inferior. To think that, that we didn't leave 
men, and to take half the population of the world and say, "Forget 'em," was not okay either. So 
things have changed very greatly in terms of attitudes towards women's work. Now, women are 
expected to work eight hours a day and then do all the housework. That's the difference. The 
percentage of men who help in the house is getting greater. But, my next-door neighbor, she was 
so mad, and she was pretty traditional, but they were getting ready for a party, and she was 
fussing at her-- later on, we were all having a glass of wine or something, and Molly was fussing 
at Jerry about how he hadn't helped get ready for the party.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  06:54 
Was this in Bellevue?  
 
Delphine Bowers  06:56 
Yeah, and she's, he said, "I polished the faucets in the bathroom," the implication being that they 
didn't look nice when she got through, and that that was his contribution and it was okay. [They 
laugh] So there's still, there's still a lot of stuff, although, I know families where men do the 
cooking, I know one family where a man is successfully a house husband. So, these things are 
happening now, and nobody's looking down on him because he does things. He's a volunteer at 
school, he does all kinds of stuff, real, wonderful, creative things with the children. And she just 
can't stand it, it drives her nuts, but she's very efficient at her job and makes a lot of money, so 
why not? 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  07:52 
Well, my next question was, what, what was menopause like for you? 
 
Delphine Bowers  07:58 
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I didn't notice it. I think my life was so miserable and I had so much else going on that I was 
completely out of touch with my body.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  08:17 
When was it?  
 
Delphine Bowers  08:20 
I think it probably started about 48 maybe. I had some very, very heavy periods, and people said, 
"You need to go to the doctor, maybe you have cancer." And I said, "No, I don't have cancer. I'm 
sure I don't have cancer. I think it's just menopause. If I go to the doctor, they're gonna want to 
take everything out, and I'm gonna keep it." So that's how I hung on to my organs. I'm sure that I 
would have had a hysterectomy if I'd gone to the doctor, because that's what they were doing 
then. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  08:50 
[?Oh, it's amazing.?] 
 
Delphine Bowers  08:51 
And I didn't want to be gutted. And I'm sure that's one reason that I don't take any any estrogen 
replacement. And I keep reading about how I should be, but it's goes-- I have estrogen, I 
obviously still have some. It's coming from someplace, maybe from all the fat, because fat 
generates it. I don't know where it's coming from, but I haven't menstruated for, I'm sure I 
haven't for 18 years.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  09:12 
Do you miss it?  
 
Delphine Bowers  09:12 
No. Don't miss it a bit.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  09:24 
Did anyone talk about, I mean, did any of-- did anyone talk about it with you? While, I mean. 
 
Delphine Bowers  09:40 
I knew there were some women having a very hard time, and I did have some hot flashes. I can 
remember when I was working, when I was doing that study at Harborview, and that was, I was 
49 I think when I, when I was doing that. I can remember saying, "Gosh, it's hot in here, do you 
have the heat turned up?" And the nurse is laughing at me and saying, "You're having a hot 
flash." Oh, just not paying any attention to it at all, and being really out of touch with my body.  
That was the thing that, were I more in touch with it, I might have noticed. There may have been 
things going on, but I was so, under such a lot of stress and it was, life was so difficult that it was 
like mood changes, what? If things are going well, you can notice things like that. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  10:49 
My mom's face flushes as red as your bandana, and she starts whipping open windows and starts 
yelling, "Hot flash!" like it's a fire alarm. What are your feelings about retirement? 
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Delphine Bowers  11:03 
Well, I'm right in the middle of all that. It's, I'm really enjoying the time, I'm enjoying-- I, I take, 
I need to spend a long time getting ready for bed. I don't know what that's all about, but I putter 
at night, and I do this, and that, and the other thing. And if I don't start that process until 10:30, I 
don't get to bed until close to, to midnight. I don't get to bed until midnight, and don't turn off my 
light until 12:30. But last night, I started my puttering at about 9:30 and I could turn my light off 
at 11. I slept right, pretty much straight through until seven o'clock this morning. It was 
wonderful. So, it has something-- I wouldn't get out of group until nine, I couldn't possibly be 
home before 9:30 and I just never got to bed before 11. Other people could, they'd say, "Oh, I 
just went home and went to bed," but I need wind down time. So, I like this part of it, I think that 
I'm going to, it's much better for my body. I miss the contact with young people. I miss the 
emotional stimulation. I miss having a lot of time with Al, although I have other time with other 
people. But I'm missing it less and less, and I have, someone called me and wanted to come back 
to therapy, and I haven't returned their call, and I think that I'm working up to-- I'd like to keep 
that one group for a while, but I think that when I would say to someone, and I'll probably call 
her when I get that in my head, "I'm willing to take you as a client with the understanding that 
you intend to go into group," because that I will continue doing. But I don't want long term 
individual clients, I'm gone too much for that. The group will go on, Al will do the group, and it 
will continue, and it'll be just fine, whether I'm there or not. But individuals who need long term 
work don't need someone that's gone three weeks here, and a month there, and two weeks the 
other place. So, I think I've got that settled in my head, and I can call up this lady and say, "This 
is what the situation is. I don't know whether you're interested, and I'm, I'm sorry I didn't call you 
back." I got, I'd been out of town, and I got the call when I came back. It was one of many calls. 
But I don't want long term individuals, I don't want to do that anymore. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  13:49 
Do you feel nervous at all about having so much time? 
 
Delphine Bowers  13:55 
No, I read, I talk to people on the phone, I go for walks. I'm fine. I, sometimes I get restless along 
about eight o'clock at night, and I may call someone, because what I'm wanting is, is connection. 
I know enough people to be able to connect. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  14:33 
I have two last questions, and the first one, if you're, if you're ready for them--you feel like 
you're ready?--is how, how would you like to be remembered? 
 
Delphine Bowers  14:55 
I'd like to be remembered as a loving person who was able to reduce her ego. It would be nice to 
be able to be remembered as a loving, deep person who was without ego, but I don't think that's 
possible. [They laugh] I work very hard on that. I was talking to you earlier about this, being able 
to have your ego removed from the things you're doing, it makes life easier because it, it's about 
not taking things personally.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  15:45 
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Then the next question is, what do you consider to be the most important part of your life to 
date? 
 
Delphine Bowers  15:51 
Oh, there's no doubt in my life, that it's my spiritual life. And I think that, I mean, of course my 
kids are important to me, but until I have-- I consider myself very much a novice spiritually, but 
until I began to work on that and to allow myself to think it was important, I couldn't really take 
in love. And so it has changed my relationships with everybody and everything. That's why it's 
important, it's really interesting. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  16:40 
It changed your relationships with your kids?  
 
Delphine Bowers  16:42 
Yeah. I'm much less likely to take things personally and get hooked. I can remember Gerta and I 
gave a great birthday party. She was 75 and I'm 70, and I asked my kids-- and one of the kids 
didn't come because she had a headache and one of the other old women there said [telephone 
ringing], "If I'd done that to my mother, she wouldn't have spoken to me for a year. You're sure a 
different kind of a mother." And I thought, I really didn't have any ego involved in it. I wanted to 
show off my kids. It'd have been nice to have a kid, Sarah-- Claire was there, and she was 
wonderful, and Bill was there, and the kids and his wife, and Jason was there. I mean, I had 
enough kids there, I didn't have to have Sarah there. And I suppose if she'd been an only child, I 
might have had some feelings about it, but it wasn't like, why would I do that. So that's how it's 
changed, because I might not have gone into a thing over it, but I might have really resented it 
and picked at her about it later, "You don't know how how sad I was not to have you," and, "I 
was bragging that you were going to be there, and then you didn't come," and all of that stuff. 
I've done that, but I don't need to do that anymore. It's very nice. I can let her have her headache, 
and I don't even know whether she had a headache, maybe she just didn't want to come. That's 
okay. That's how it's changed. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  18:18 
Now I have another question here. I said it was my last one, but is writing, for you, part of your 
spiritual life? 
 
Delphine Bowers  18:25 
It is, and I don't do it very much. I have a great deal of trouble, in fact, I just don't journal. And I 
know I need to journal, everywhere I go, I'm told I need to journal, and I believe it, but I don't do 
it. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  18:43 
And is the write-- Is pretty much the only writing that you do in Pesha's class? 
 
Delphine Bowers  18:49 
Yeah. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  18:52 
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Why'd you start going to it? 
 
Delphine Bowers  18:54 
Well, she came to a Havdallah that I went to and read her poetry, it was a poetry reading, and 
Gerta and I both went, and we decided to take the class. And then she's going, Gerta's going to be 
gone so much, she's not taking it this quarter, and she was very critical of her own writing. And 
I'm very critical of mine too, but I'm safe there. That's another reason I don't journal, is because 
I'm critical of my writing. That's a bit of loving yourself that I haven't dealt with yet. So that's 
how I took it, is, in fact, I heard Pesha do a poetry reading. It was just wonderful. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  19:38 
Would you like to share any of your writing with this project? 
 
Delphine Bowers  19:51 
Hmm. You probably have the birthday poem that I wrote. You could put that in.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  19:54 
I could? 
 
Delphine Bowers  19:55 
Yeah, I think it's a pretty good one.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  19:58 
I love it. I do, I love it. 
 
Delphine Bowers  19:59 
The [?chrome?] poem I wrote a long time ago, but I haven't seen it for a long time. I should look 
and see what that is.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  20:10 
What about that poem about Miss Liggett? 
 
Delphine Bowers  20:12 
Oh, I'm going to have to find it. I ran into it the other day, and I didn't, I never typed it up, I never 
put it away. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  20:27 
I just wanted to ask, just in case you did want to share, if you felt like you wanted to share 
something with the, I'd put it with the project. You know, we have plenty of time, so. 
 
Delphine Bowers  20:39 
We can go in and look and see if we can find Miss Liggett. That's a good poem. I think you were 
there when I read it. These, when I do this, it accomplishes something for me and finishes 
something. And so then I forget it, well, I don't, I don't cherish by writing. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  21:04 
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Is there any, any last thing that you'd like to say on the tape about this? 
 
Delphine Bowers  21:14 
Well, I'd like to say that you do a really good job, that your ego doesn't get involved. Your 
personal stuff never gets into it, but I never have the sense that that keeps you from being 
connected, or that you're withholding, and that's a very nice trick that you're doing there. Because 
you're connected, you're open, your heart is open, your mind is open. And your mind doesn't stop 
functioning, even though you may be somewhat caught up in what I'm saying. And you don't, 
you don't intrude in any way. And I think you do a very good job. I've done a great deal of 
interviewing, and I like what you do.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  21:51 
Thank you. Alrighty. 
 